Sober Sunday Edition: U.S. Out of Iraq
K-Dough's Sober Sunday EditionThis weekend marks the 3rd anniversary of the illegal U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. This unjustified, imperlialistic bloody war has killed countless Iraqi civilians and comparatively few Americans. The U.S. invasion has been a catalyst for civil chaos and killing that has set the country back light years in it's development. An entire generation of children are now growing up in fear, sadness and poverty amidst the death and destruction. Rage is breeding rage.
All this for what? Corporate greed. Childish, insipid bravado.
Fuck Bush and his regime. One can only hope the U.S. populous wakes the hell up before the next election, for the sake of young Americans dying overseas and - at the very least - for the sake of the innocent women and children of Iraq.
To all Americans who read this: Tell your elected representatives to get your boys and girls out of Iraq as soon as possible, for the sake of peace and humanity. This is not about Republicans vs. Democrats. This is about not blindly supporting a war that has no end or reason, and offering the world the best that America has to give - mercy and caring.
posted by K-Dough at 8:06 AM
42 Comments:
I agree, marksomething. It is genocide. Bush can spin it any way he wants, but it is.
Bombing for peace. Isn't that the same as fucking for virginity?
I'm hoping my comment here can be looked at objectively....
The genocide of the people of Iraq, which is not the best use of the term, was NOT committed by Americans, but rather by the insurgents which are the same ones who had control of Iraq in the first place.
A suicide bomber, place explosive, etc., that was used by the insurgents was considered a success if one American was injured while dozens of civilians were killed.
The reasoning behind the war was wrong, but history will show that the outcome was wothwhile. The Iraqi elections bring about the start of a new era for Iraq, what will take time is for the Iraqis' to find a form of democracy that works for their lifestyle and beliefs.
I would also like to address the "corporate" angle in the post. Anyone who would suggest that the Iraq thing was an "oil grab" should look into how the whole system actually works, it's impossible for the US to benifit from opening up the Iraqi market, other than lowering world oil prices, which would make all consumers happy I guess. Canadas' oile reserves are far larger than Iraqs', and add to that the cost of processing and shipping and it makes the whole idea seem silly.
As far as Halliburton getting contract, well at least Michael Moore will have more money for his "films", seeing as how he is a shareholder in the company....
Dino- So you don't think controlling the price of oil (whether it's low and benefits the consumer/industry, or high and benefits oil companies) is beneficial to the US- the largest consumer of gasoline in the world?
BTW- I agree with your point on genocide. The Iraq situation has nothing to do with genocide. It's a civil war sparked and aggravated by foreign occupation that is creating the death and destruction.
But democracies are not forced on societies. They grow out of natural historical processes. I challenge you to name one democracy that has grown and flourished because it was transplanted through a foreign invasion.
Um, I hate to have to contradict you on this point K-dough, but what about Japan, Austria, Germany and Italy?
They were dictatorships before WWII, and now they're solid democracies, that were installed, and their political systems largely designed by, foreign occupying powers.
Not that that justifies the USA, UK, etc., invading Iraq. That's been shown to have been done through the willful deceit of US/British citizens on the part of Bush and Blair and their cronies. But it's one thing to say the war was illegal and unjusitified and that the peace is being incompetently executed by leaders suffering from either incomparable naivete or cold indifference to the consequences of their actions, it's another thing entirely to say that the fact the war didn't lead to peace and democracy in Iraq means that it can only be so.
Jacobin- I absolutely agree with your sentiment. Is there a history between you and Dino I'm not getting here though?
I have to say, if for any reason, a foreign country invaded Canada, I would be the first out in the streets of my neighbourhood, with any weapon I had access to, defending the country I love and my children and family.
Look, I don't know what the solution is for Iraq at this point. I just think that whatever process needs to happen to restore stabliity there, will only be delayed as long the US in their country.
But does anyone truly believe that the war in Iraq will lead to peace and democracy?
Personally, I don't, but it is still early days and so we could all be proven wrong on that point in the future.
I am just pointing out that the fact it hasn't happened yet is largely the responsibility of the invading countries, and that it is not historically accurate to say that democracy has never been installed by outsiders, as this has clearly been done on several occasions.
By the way, as a British citizen, I feel it is my duty to oppose the war criminal residing in 10 Downing Street.
Check out the following website, and if you have any friends or relatives in the UK, please suggest they do likewise.
I hope to see Tony Blair tried before the International Court of Justice in The Hague for war crimes in my lifetime, doubtful though that may be, but impeachment would be a good start. www.impeachblair.org/
K-dough, would you do me a favour and consider adding a link to the impeachblair site to your blog.
Homo- Japan is not at all relevant to the discussion. Democracy (or at least a historically valid form of it) was already in place before the US invaded Japan. Same can be said for Gernany. Both countries were dominated by radical forms of quasi-democratic government in the 30s. Fascism aside, they were still modern, democratic states in a loose conceptual sense and in the context of their times.
Not to mention in all your examples, you are talking about states who were invaded during the course of prosecuting extemely aggressive foreign imperialistic wars.
In my eyes, there are no valid criteria by which to draw similarities between the US campaign to liberate Iraqis and instil democracy, and the allied forces overtaking Japan or Germany.
Show me an example where a bi-lateral war was fought, and the invaders succesfully installed a democratic government.
"Fascism aside, they were still modern, democratic states in a loose conceptual sense and in the context of their times."
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Hitler drove a stake through democracy's heart in the early 30s with the Enabling Act. Japan under Hirohito did not resemble anything we would recognize as democratic.
On a happier note, wouldn't it be wonderful to see that Spanish prosecutor who had Pinochet arrested on a warrant do the same to Blair the next time he's in Spain? I can dream...
I'll add the link if they change it to Impale Blair. I think impeach is a little lame these days- won't attract the numbers I'm looking for. I mean, how am I supposed to compete with video games, MTV, Hollywood etc...
Impeach is just too democratic. Damn that democracy!
homo- I'm gonna have you arrested by the Spindly Calves Police.
Well, we have to start somewhere. By the way, the Spanish judge was called Baltasar Garzon.
You can read more about him here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/10/98/the_pinochet_file/198339.stm
Would that there were more people like him; the world would be a better place.
Calf off!!!!!! I have awesome calves. You are just insanely jealous because yours resemble those of a 2 year old girl.
Oh, and I may be gay, but even I wouldn't wear that horrible, pink shirt you wear every time I see you. Methinks there's a lot of closet space in your house for that shirt to hide in...
I wish there more Americans like Blackie Lawless. At least they'd be more entertaining.
BTW- I wish I had been named Balthazar. I would've ended up ruling the universe, instead of just ruling my lunch pail.
I hereby dub thee, Princess Balthazarina.
Poof!
There, now you've been made an honorary queen and given your drag name. I expect to see you lipsynching badly to Britney Spears songs in that gaudy pink shirt, a red miniskirt and stilleto heals tonight at Crews.
"The straightest gay dude I know." How many gay dudes do you know anyway? And what would diku say, I am sure he'd be wanting that supposed "honour"?
I am all gay, thanks.
And why is this entitled "Sober Sunday Edition"? I've seen you hundreds of times, and never once have you not been drunk. Nor have I for that matter.
Pass me that bottle of wine, would ya?
Homo- you asked "How many gay dudes do you know?"
Did you mean ones I let blow me or ones I'm in relationships with?
Well, I am not even sure how to respond to that, but I am sure it has something to do with that shirt.
Homo- Well, I was sober when I wrote it. When I'm sober I'm all about the peace. But right now I'm on my second Leffe Brun, so I'm starting to swing over to the "punch you in the throat with no provocation" Sunday mentality.
Now THAT I have seen! You can take the boy out of the 'shwa, but you can't take the 'shwa out of the boy.
I am more partial to blonds myself: Leffe Blond.
Is there a history between you and Dino I'm not getting here though?
no, i just read his post and it pissed me off!, no ill will towards dino, hell i don't even know the man.
i just get sick and tired of people trying to put a positive spin on war.
it's like saying that piece of shit over there is really a steak,no it's a piece of shit, that what it is
Squid- I could never fake being drunk. If we had ever drank together you'd know why dude.
And believe me- Homo ain't fakin' his love of man parts either. If you had ever gotten drunk with him you'd know why.
I think blaming the media is a lazy way out. Whenever I hear that shit I always think, what about the idiots believing the media? I blame stupid humans not the media.
And so you know, there are real live people out here who despise the thought of war for any reason.
Dino- I've had steak that tasted like shit before, so there is always a fine line related to perception...
K-Dough,
As someone who once wore the uniform of this country, be assured that there is nothing pleasant about looking down the barrel of someone else gun. But if the men and women who are doing that now don't do it today, where will we be tomorrow. We talk grandly of a global village. Well, guess what,dude. There will always be some asshole who wants to control that village. He may not start on your street, but he will get to it sooner than later... unless he is stopped. And words won't stop him. He understands only one language and that is blunt force. Someone has to administer that force for the good of everyone he would enslave.If I have a choice(and I do) between slavery and war, I choose war.
Squid- We definitely have philosophical differences on this issue. At the core of my belief is that it is not ok to kill someone in anticipation of their agression- unless they are rushing at you with a weapon.
There is absolutely no rational, judicious or demonstrable justification for the US to have invaded Iraq in the first place, so all your protestrations about ensuring freedom are moot to me. The evidence was contrived to support an illegal plan. End story. They should get the fuck out that country and mitigate any further damage they may cause to that society.
US foreign policy is based on fear. Mine isn't.
"It's the machinery behind him that is perpetrating this shit."
So now Dick Cheney counts as "Machinery"?
Do you seriously think pulling out of Iraq NOW will solve anything? Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds will suddenly throw down their arms and embrace eachother as soon as the Americans leave?
Nice dream...
The US is there. Saddam is gone. There are problems to be fixed. I understand if you were against the war in the first place, but that was 3 years ago, pulling troops out now won't solve a single thing.
It will keep more Americans from dying maybe, but the Iraqis will keep on killing eachother. Who will step in to help them? The EU? The UN? Canada?
Ya, sure.
The Americans caused this mess and now its their turn to fix it. If they leave now not one Iraqi life will be saved and we will only end up with Taliban x 10 harboring terrorists who are plotting 9/11 x 10.
Be realistic.
pete- the problem is, it is beyond their power to fix it. Their continued presence will merely perpetuate the problem and delay the solution.
I have no illusions that a US withdrawal will fix anything. It's too late for that. The only thing that will fix anything is letting Iraqis figure out what the solution is and let history and natural forces run their courses.
VERY interesting discussion.....
Jacobin, no offence taken bud. I'm not putting a positive spin on war, but without it we would all be living under the aspires of Atilla the Hun, or the Roman Empire.
It boils down to human nature, there will ALWAYS be people who want it all, and those willing to stand up for individuality.
On your point on Civil War being worse, I think that is debatable as well, civil war defines a nation on it's outcome, and is often a necessary aspect of a nations developement.
Instead of the rhetorical "fuck you", why not look at WHO is killing the people in Iraq? As for your hundreds of thousands killed, how many died under Saddam for less reasons. How many more years would it have been prudent to let a tyrrant have dissidents killed and let them live in substandard conditions?
The world will NOT come together in one big group hug and live in harmony, as Eutopian as it seems, it's not possible.
K-Dough, thanks for stopping by the site. There is a global idea that the US controls all, which is false. If all comes around, Iraq will end up made in the shade with thier reserves, and the US will have to pay through the nose for their oil.....from Canada....
Dino- you said: "How many more years would it have been prudent to let a tyrrant have dissidents killed and let them live in substandard conditions?"
How many nore years will people suffer under Kim Jong Il or The Chinese Communist Party? I don't see America the Brave invading North Korea or campaigning on the shores of the Yangtze.
The idea that the US is the saviour of the world and defender of others people's rights is thin propaganda. That shit might work on some idiots but not on me.
Illegal invasion. No mandate. No justification.
Lastly, I am partial to rhetoric when it suits my needs for expression.
K-Dough,
not being able to do everything is no excuse to do nothing.
Chucker - making arbitrary selective decisions to do something belies the fact there is no noble cause, just self-aggrandizing goals.
Good post and interesting comments. K-Dough, I agree with you. Any which way you look at it, there is no justification for the war on Iraq. It is illegal, immoral, unjustified. Slogans such as "Operation Iraqi Freedom" are absolutely hollow, meaningless. It is my sentiment also that "democracy" cannot be foisted arbitrarily by bombs and guns upon a people. Lasting "democracy" comes from within, not from 'without'.
All the Iraqis I've talked to say that as bad as life was under Saddam, it is far worse now.
You may want to check out the Iraqi girl Riverbend's blog: Baghad Burning. She posts regularly about her life and the situation in her country. Hers is an intelligent, truthful voice. You may also wish to put in a link to her blog, as I have done. Definitely well worth a daily read.
Her post yesterday (March 18) is especially poignant as she reflects upon the three years of the war.
Here is an excerpt:
"The thing most worrisome about the situation now, is that discrimination based on sect has become so commonplace. For the average educated Iraqi in Baghdad, there is still scorn for all the Sunni/Shia talk. Sadly though, people are being pushed into claiming to be this or that because political parties are promoting it with every speech and every newspaper- the whole ‘us’ / ‘them’. We read constantly about how ‘We Sunnis should unite with our Shia brothers…’ or how ‘We Shia should forgive our Sunni brothers…’ (note how us Sunni and Shia sisters don’t really fit into either equation at this point). Politicians and religious figures seem to forget at the end of the day that we’re all simply Iraqis.
And what role are the occupiers playing in all of this? It’s very convenient for them, I believe. It’s all very good if Iraqis are abducting and killing each other- then they can be the neutral foreign party trying to promote peace and understanding between people who, up until the occupation, were very peaceful and understanding.
Three years after the war, and we’ve managed to move backwards in a visible way, and in a not so visible way."
Her pessimistic conclusion is heartbreaking and resigned:
"Three years later and the nightmares of bombings and of shock and awe have evolved into another sort of nightmare. The difference between now and then was that three years ago, we were still worrying about material things- possessions, houses, cars, electricity, water, fuel… It’s difficult to define what worries us most now. Even the most cynical war critics couldn't imagine the country being this bad three years after the war... Allah yistur min il rab3a (God protect us from the fourth year)."
verbena-19
AM- Thanks for the lead- I'll check her blog out. Thnx also for the kudos!
Come back real soon ya hear....
K
K-Dough,
pretending something is arbitrary belies in ignobility of the protest.
Chucker- Upon a cursory first reading, I understood all the words you just typed, but not the order in which they appear. However, I am nodding my head and pretending to have understood. I know you can't see me, but you'll have to take my word for it. I'm not pretending to pretend.
I know, the words look nice and fancy. I am pretending I made a verbal smack down there.
Anna-Marie, I've actually been on Baghdad Burning a few times, agreed, it's a great site.
It smacks of civil war, very reminiscent of letter one reads from the American civil war....
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